• In 2016, Donald Trump’s presidential win came as a surprise to many people, which inspired resistance and energized liberals and progressives across the country: from the ubiquitous pink hats of the Women’s March, to striking cab drivers fighting Trump’s attempted Muslim ban, scores of people came together to push back against unconstitutional policies. But after Trump’s 2024 win, that energy doesn’t seem there. Are people tired? Numb? Resigned? What does resistance look like when we have to do it all over again? For groups like the ACLU, the battle will take place in the courtroom, where they had several big wins against the last Trump administration. AJ Hikes, ACLU Deputy Executive Director for Strategy and Culture, joins us.
• And in headlines: Vivek Ramaswamy says his and Elon Musk’s “Department of Government Efficiency” will “delete” entire agencies via executive order, President Joe Biden authorizes Ukraine to use US-made long-range missiles against Russia, Israeli airstrikes kill nearly 100 Palestinians in Gaza, and a top Hezbollah official in Beirut, and the Democratic Party is still blowing up your phone with fundraising texts.

• Learn more about the ACLU’s initiatives – www.aclu.org/campaigns-initiatives/project2025
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• What A Day – YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@whatadaypodcast

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TRANSCRIPT

Jane Coaston: It’s Monday, November 18th. I’m Jane Coaston, and this is What a Day. The show that will not be taking a four year long cruise to avoid Donald Trump’s presidency. Largely because the show doesn’t do cruises. Locked on a ship for four years. I’m not Odysseus. I do not have that kind of time. [music break] On today’s show, Vivek Ramaswamy says he’ll delete agencies as head of the Department of Government Efficiency, which is not a department. And President Biden approves the use of long range missiles for Ukraine’s military. Let’s get into it. In 2016, Donald Trump’s presidential win surprised a lot of people and the reaction was immediate. The 2017 Women’s March took place in big cities and tiny towns across the country and around the world the day after his inauguration, people stood up to the Muslim ban in airports and in courtrooms. They joined organizations fighting for immigrants and for LGBTQ rights. And they ran for office up and down the ballot because, well, if he could run and win, so could pretty much anyone else. But in 2024, after another Trump presidential victory, many people seem tired. We did this once. We did. We were all there. And now we have to do it again. Do we really have it in us to resist? And what does that even mean? What does it mean to stand up against Trump’s worst ideas? Where do we even begin to combat the policy agenda laid out in Project 2025, one that seeks to gut access to reproductive health care and target the livelihoods of trans and LGBTQ people under a Republican governmental trifecta, a trifecta that will be only emboldened by the conservative Supreme Court. Wow. Even saying all of that sucks. But for the ACLU, it means taking the fight against Trump’s policies to the courts. That’s where they had big wins during Trump’s first administration. So I called up AJ Hikes, deputy executive director for strategy and culture at the ACLU, to talk about the organization’s plan for the next four years and how you can help. AJ, welcome to What a Day. 

AJ Hikes: Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here. 

Jane Coaston: So a statement from the ACLU said that the organization fought Trump’s policies more than 400 times during his first presidency. Can you remind me of the ACLU’s success fighting Trump the first time around? 

AJ Hikes: Yes, that is exactly right. We filed 434 legal actions against the first Trump administration, and we often won, this is what folks forget. We often won landmark cases before Trump appointed judges. And so one week into Trump’s very first presidency, we were the first organization to successfully challenge his Muslim ban. And then when the administration sought to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census and separate families at the border, the ACLU took both of those fights to the Supreme Court and won. And our litigation also stopped the inhumane practice of separating immigrant families. So we did that before. And under the next Trump administration, we’re going to deploy we’re going to deploy our litigation team, but also our millions of activists and card carrying members that we have alongside our 2200 staff that span every single state, D.C. and Puerto Rico to make sure that we can fight for civil liberties and civil rights once again. 

Jane Coaston: It is a different ball game than it was in 2016. We’ve got a conservative supermajority in the Supreme Court that’s handed Trump and all future presidents, probably mostly Republicans, broad immunity from prosecution for actions they take in office. We’ve got an incoming Republican Senate and House and bananas policy promises from the president elect. What are some of the fights that the ACLU is gearing up for? 

AJ Hikes: The second Trump administration is going to be significantly more aggressive and effective in executing the plans to erode our democracy. And we believe him when he has been very clear about what he’s going to do. Everything that’s outlined in Project 2025, mass deportation force that we’ve never seen in our country’s history. Um. We’re concerned about a national abortion ban. Um. We’re concerned about efforts to mobilize the military to criminalize dissent and stifle free speech and expand government surveillance and target political opponents. And probably unsurprising to you, then we have a plan. And so our plan really leans into what the unique strengths that we have at the ACLU. We have a plan around litigation. We have a plan around creating firewalls in our state because there’s a lot that we can do the state and local level, aside from what’s going on at the federal level. And then we have a plan around ensuring protest and dissent and debate are able to survive at any cost, because we know that that’s one of the places that he’s going to attack. I know that there’s a lot of conventional wisdom that’s among liberals, progressives, I hear this all the time, that we just have no path in the courts, like the courts are lost to us. We just can’t win. That’s not true. We really can win. First thing to remember is that most cases don’t go to the Supreme Court. We’re always kind of hyper focused on the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court takes about 60 cases. That’s out of tens and thousands of cases. So those cases are decided at the lower levels and we can win at the lower levels. We have before. We’re winning now. So we have litigation plans across all of our issue areas and the ones that are really at the top of the the Trump administration’s priorities. The second piece that we’re looking at, what we call our firewall for freedom. We have a 98 page plan about how the states can really be protagonists. And the first lines of defense against federal government encroachment. We’ve already done that work with the states. A lot of it is already moving now. So we have an opportunity to use state’s rights and employ the federalist structure that we have to advance rights and liberties. And then, of course, we want to make sure that we have folks on the field. And so when we’re talking about the protesting mass deportations, protesting the scapegoating of trans kids, we want to make sure that people are able to stay in the streets and be heard. And so we’re doing know your rights materials. We’re talking about legal observers. We’re really making sure that folks can can stand up against this administration. 

Jane Coaston: I want to get into a little bit of the specifics here, because obviously you’ve talked about Trump’s plan for mass deportation of immigrants. He’s wasted no time appointing people like his former senior adviser, Stephen Miller, who hates everyone. And former acting director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Tom Homan, who loves the idea of deporting families as groups. You mentioned focusing on the local level. How are you preparing for those kinds of legal battles, especially at the local level, to protect migrant communities? 

AJ Hikes: So the first thing to remember, especially when we’re talking about some of the concerns that we have around mass deportations, is that Trump actually cannot enact this plan without the help of governors. He cannot do this without having governors helping him round folks up. He needs attorneys general, state legislatures. And we have been working with those folks for months to, frankly, prepare to cut off that help. And it’s not just elected officials. Right? Regular folks also have an important role to play here. I want to remind folks that it wasn’t just lawyers who acted after the Muslim ban in the first Trump administration. Right? It was regular people who flooded the airports, who protested in the streets, who called out injustice, who made the media pay attention, and to see that the American people do not support this. So we have a playbook for cities and municipalities and even in red state. That’s the thing we’re not just talking about in blue states or even in purple states. There is a role for mayors and city councils to play to protect the rights and freedoms. During the first Trump administration. People powered volunteers met with more than a thousand law enforcement officials. They testified at city council meetings. They submitted letters to the editor, to local papers, which resulted in local governments adopting binding ordinances and resolutions to protect immigrant communities. So we have a very strong history of volunteers showing up, engaging in this work to protect the the rights of everyone. 

Jane Coaston: How do the legal fights get more complicated if we have basically a Trump loyalist attorney general like Matt Gaetz or otherwise at the helm of the Department of Justice, like it seems challenging if you just have a person who is just like, I’m just here to do whatever Trump wants. 

AJ Hikes: I’m going to be honest with you. We are very, very, very concerned about that. We do know that the most extreme folks are nominated for these positions. We expected that. We know that Trump is going to use that office as really his personal vendetta machine. And we are prepared for that rate of pushback in the courts and on the streets, defend protesters, journalists, and really push back against the abuse of executive power that we anticipate. Left, right and center. 

Jane Coaston: So you have an opportunity now to speak to my audience, our audience of anxious, afraid people who are so worried that the courts are just done for, that everything is screwed. I keep saying like saying everything’s screwed just does Trump’s work for him. The only way out is through. But what is your message to people who are already very afraid and nervous about what the next four years could look like for them and for the people they love? 

AJ Hikes: I’ll tell you that I facilitated a town hall with a lot of ACLU supporters, with our own ACLU internal audience, which is feeling a lot of what you’re talking about, just grief, fear, anxiety and frankly, deep concern for our families, our friends, our communities. Many of us there at the ACLU are here because we’re impacted communities. This work is the work of our lives. And so I want to say, whatever folks are feeling, you are in very good company, right? And we have so much work to do. Throwing our hands up. This kind of resignation that I’ve seen from folks is just not the answer. I want to remind folks that I we have tremendous disappointment at the top of the ticket for sure on election night. But we had a lot of incredible wins, especially around abortion. We were able to secure the right to abortion for 50 million folks. So 50 million folks woke up after election night with an access to reproductive care that they did not have the night before. There is so much that we can actually still do here. So please do not give up and leave democracy to Trump and the Trump administration, especially during this incredibly important time. 

Jane Coaston: AJ, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you. 

AJ Hikes: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jane. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with AJ Hikes, Deputy Executive Director for Strategy and Culture at the ACLU. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment. But if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts. Watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]

[AD BREAK]

Jane Coaston: And now the news. 

[sung] Headlines. 

[clip of Vivek Ramaswamy] We expect certain agencies to be deleted outright. We expect mass reductions in force in areas of the federal government that are bloated. We expect massive cuts of federal contractors and others who are overbilling the federal government. 

Jane Coaston: That was Vivek Ramaswamy on Fox News on Sunday, talking about his and Elon Musk’s plans as the heads of Trump’s Department of Government Efficiency, a department that isn’t a department. Because, much to Trump’s chagrin, you just can’t make a department without approval from Congress. Ramaswamy and Musk have been tasked with reducing federal spending, a job that is actually held by the Government Accountability Office, a real thing that actually exists. Ramaswamy says he’s got a plan to get around those pesky things like checks and balances. The power of the pen. 

[clip of Vivek Ramaswamy] And the beauty of all of this is that can be achieved just through executive action without Congress. 

Jane Coaston: In general, when people say this can just be done, it can’t be. We’ll see how this goes. On Sunday, President Biden authorized Ukraine to use long range U.S. missiles in its fight against Russia. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has long pressed Biden to lift the U.S. ban on using such weapons. Russian President Vladimir Putin has threatened nuclear warfare if Russia is attacked with these types of missiles. The new permission comes as Russia readies nearly 50,000 troops, including those sent by North Korea earlier this month to retake the Ukrainian occupied region of Kursk. White House officials say that lifting the ban on long range attacks is meant to help Ukraine keep control of the southern Russian region for as long as possible. If Russia were to take it back, Ukraine would lose significant leverage at the negotiating table. Tuesday marks 1000 days of war in Ukraine. The Israel Defense Forces continued its intense assault on Gaza and neighboring Lebanon over the weekend. Israeli airstrikes killed nearly 100 Palestinians in Gaza on Sunday. At least half of those deaths were from an attack on a residential building in the northern region of the Gaza Strip. In neighboring Lebanon, Sunday marked the IDF’s sixth consecutive day of attacks in the country’s capital, Beirut. Several buildings in the city’s southern suburbs were destroyed as Israel continued its targeting of Hezbollah officials. The Lebanese militant group said that an Israeli airstrike killed it’s media spokesperson Mohammad Afif. The country’s health ministry said that four people were killed and 14 more were wounded in an attack that killed Afif. And that the IDF issued no evacuation warning beforehand. And just when you thought it was over. The Democratic Party is still begging for your money. Dems post-election fundraising messaging focuses on things like Trump’s terrifying Cabinet picks or the hope that some of the uncalled congressional races might go blue. Rumors have circulated that the Harris Walz campaign is going to end up in debt, despite raising over a billion dollars in the just over 100 days of the campaign. But Patrick Stover, the campaign’s chief financial officer, has said that’s not true. Still, some staffers have expressed mixed feelings about things like a massive, expensive ad in the sphere in Las Vegas or the one million dollars the campaign paid Oprah Winfrey’s production company, Harpo, for a star studded town hall event. A storyline that Fox News’s Maria Bartiromo took the opportunity to run with on Sunday while speaking on Sunday Futures with noted random actor guy Scott Baio. 

[clip of Maria Bartiromo] Your reaction to Oprah Winfrey getting up at the podium saying, if you don’t vote for Kamala, you’ll never vote again. And then we find out that actually her company was paid a million dollars. What’s going on with Hollywood support? 

[clip of Scott Baio] I don’t know. I mean, if you if you really believe in somebody, you support them. You don’t, you don’t have to pay them. 

Jane Coaston: For the record, the campaign says Winfrey was not paid a personal fee. The million dollar price tag was for production costs for the Michigan event. Baio went on to say. 

[clip of Scott Baio] When I came out for Trump in 2016, not only did I not get paid, but I knew that I was sacrificing my career because I believed in the man and I believed in his vision. 

Jane Coaston: Yeah, I’m sure that’s why his career tanked and not because of Super Babies: Baby Geniuses Two or God’s Not Dead: In God We Trust. Still, Democrats, please stop texting me. I’m dealing with enough already. And that’s the news. [music break] One more thing. Let me take you back to Barack Obama’s presidency. It was a simpler time. Okay. It was not a simpler time, but it was a very different time because back then, the Republican Party believed very firmly that absolutely no one should tell you what to eat, including and perhaps especially first Lady Michelle Obama. Back in 2010, Michelle Obama helped launch a program called Let’s Move, aimed at reducing childhood obesity and getting kids to be more active. Let’s Move emphasized encouraging healthy eating and exercise and getting better food into school lunches. Around this same time, Michael Bloomberg, then mayor of New York City, proposed a ban on sugary drinks larger than 16oz. Democrats were talking about how to get kids healthier. Barack Obama signed a ban on trans fats in packaged food, and the FDA tried to make food companies reduce the amount of salt in our food supply. And the Republican Party and Fox News lost its ever loving mind. 

[clip of Republican montage] When I heard this, I thought, get your damn hands off my fries, lady. If I want to be a fat, fat fatty and shovel French fries all day long, that is my choice. We’re going to have uh, you know, the government fining us if we use salt. Well, coming up straight ahead. All this talk about the government taking salt away from you because it’s so bad for you. But aren’t there good things about salt? I hate the government getting involved and telling me what to eat and not. Food police? Do you think the government should regulate the ingredients in the food we eat? 

Jane Coaston: Sarah Palin, the former governor of Alaska turned rightwing hero performatively drank a big gulp during her appearance at the 2013 Conservative Political Action Conference. Because nobody, nobody was going to take away her right to drink a soda roughly the same size as a baby. 

[clip of Sarah Palin] Oh Bloomberg’s not around, our Big Gulp’s safe. 

Jane Coaston: It’s now 2024 and RFK Jr., President Trump’s nomination for HHS secretary has lots of ideas for making America healthy again. And some of those ideas sure seem familiar. 

[clip of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] If we took all of these chemicals out, our nation would get healthier immediately. We’d have fewer sick days, we’d have better focus, we’d have less anxiety. Our kids would learn more easily, we’d lose weight, we’d have more energy, we’d have fewer tumors and longer lives. 

Jane Coaston: See, I’ve been racking my brain for why the GOP’s rapturous embrace of RFK Jr. bothers me so much. Sure, there’s the anti-vaccine stance or how he treated his late wife and his embrace of literally anything provided a doctor said he shouldn’t. And the fact that Trump says he’s just going to deregulate everything anyway and a bunch of other stuff. But I finally figured it out this weekend. It’s a hypocrisy. See, I know 2014 seems like it was a long time ago, but a lot of the Republicans who were in our lives sadly got their start back in this time back then. They were part of the Tea Party railing against government power and screaming at anyone who would listen and a bunch of people who wouldn’t. That nothing was more important than letting parents decide what their kids ate, or drink, or did, and that anything involving the government was communism. And now a whole bunch of these exact same people have absolutely no problem with RFK Jr telling everyone exactly how and what to eat and demanding that preservatives and pesticides get out of the American food supply. So I think we have two options here. Either a bunch of Republicans have decided that actually government can do good and be good on behalf of the citizenry, ensuring we’re all happier, healthier people or they’re all full of shit. [music break]

[AD BREAK]

Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe. Leave a review. Do not take me on a cruise and tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading and not just about how often murders take place on cruise ships and how cruise ships will often fly the flags of countries with extremely lax approaches to law enforcement to avoid regulations on things like murder, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston. And seriously, no cruises. No cruises. No big boats. No cruises. No ocean. No thank you. [music break]