In This Episode
- Roughly 20 million people have already voted in the upcoming election, either by mail or in person. And as the ballots keep pouring in, Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump are running around the country, trying to sway as many voters as they can ahead of what’s shaping up to be a historically close election. On Tuesday, Vice President Kamala Harris sat down for interviews with NBC and Telemundo, while former President Barack Obama and rapper Eminem rallied for her in Michigan. Meanwhile, Trump joined a roundtable with Latino leaders in Doral, Florida, canceled a virtual town hall, and finished the day repeating lies about FEMA during a rally in North Carolina. Atlantic Staff writer Charlie Warzel explains how the debunked FEMA conspiracies play into something darker that’s happening online and what it could all mean for the election.
- And in headlines: The FBI announced it’s investigating a possible leak of classified documents that allegedly outline Israel’s plans to attack Iran, a federal judge ordered former New York City mayor and Trump loyalist Rudy Giuliani to turn over his Upper East Side penthouse to two Georgia election workers who he defamed, and Trump plans a sit-down interview with podcaster Joe Rogan.
- Check out Charlie’s reporting – https://tinyurl.com/4ekhx5rv
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TRANSCRIPT
Jane Coaston: It’s Wednesday, October 23rd. I’m Jane Coaston. And this is What a Day, the show where we’re congratulating all of the Americans who got four figure checks this week as part of a $300 million class action lawsuit settlement from e-cigarette company Juul. Buy yourself something nice on the house. The house being a massive corporation. [music break] On today’s show, the FBI investigates leaked documents detailing Israel’s plan to retaliate against Iran. Plus, Rudy Giuliani is losing his home and a car and some World Series memorabilia. But first, roughly 20 million people have already voted in the upcoming election, either by mail or in person. A handful of states have even set early voting records. Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump are running around the country trying to sway as many voters as they can ahead of what’s shaping up to be a historically close election. On Wednesday, Vice President Kamala Harris sat down with NBC for an interview with anchor Hallie Jackson. She pressed Harris on whether her campaign was prepared for the possibility that former President Donald Trump claims victory before all the votes are counted.
[clip of Vice President Kamala Harris] We will deal with election night and the days after as they come and we have the resources and the expertise and the focus on that as well. My–
[clip of Hallie Jackson] So you have teams ready to go, is that what you’re saying? Are you thinking about that as a possibility?
[clip of Vice President Kamala Harris] Of course. This is a person, Donald Trump, who tried to undo a free and fair election, who still denies the will of the people.
Jane Coaston: Harris followed that interview up with another interview with Telemundo’s Julio Vaqueiro, aimed at undecided Latino voters, especially men.
[clip of Vice President Kamala Harris] A lot of my agenda is about creating opportunities for people to succeed. So for exaomple– [clip of Spanish speaking translator follows]
Jane Coaston: While Harris was doing that, former President Barack Obama appeared with Vice pPresidential nominee Tim Walz in Wisconsin. Obama then headed east for a rally in Detroit, where he was introduced by rapper Eminem.
[clip of Eminem] I also think that people shouldn’t be afraid to express their opinions, and I don’t think anyone wants an America where people are worried about retribution or what people will do if you make your opinion known.
Jane Coaston: Meanwhile, Trump continues to fuel reports that he is exhausted by canceling yet another event, this time a virtual town hall with his new BFF, former independent presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr and former Hawaii Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. I would also skip this. Trump did start the morning at a roundtable with Latino leaders in Doral, Florida. Did he talk about issues specific to Latino voters? Not really. But he again floated his unsubstantiated claims of a, quote, “enemy from within” the federal government. This time, it was in reference to leaked U.S. intelligence documents about Israel’s plans to attack Iran.
[clip of Donald Trump] Who did that? Can you imagine somebody doing that? That’s that’s the enemy, I guess that maybe is the enemy from within as I talk about. We have an enemy from within. I hate to talk about it. But could you imagine? Could you imagine?
Jane Coaston: Trump finished Tuesday with a rally in Greensboro, North Carolina. He once again repeated, widely debunked and bonkers claims about the federal government’s response and defended his right to make those claims.
[clip of Donald Trump] I followed that horrible storm and then I came back and we spent a lot of time here yesterday. I met some incredible people. What they’ve done is unbelievable. They haven’t had much help from our government in Washington, I can tell you that. [clip of people booing]
Jane Coaston: This whole debunked FEMA conspiracy that Trump won’t let go of plays into something darker that’s happening in some spaces online. As more Americans become detached from reality amid an ecosystem that thrives on misinformation. That’s according to Charlie Charlie Warzel. He’s a staff writer at The Atlantic who writes about tech and media. We talked about how this misinformation ecosystem could come into play during the election. Charlie, welcome to What a Day.
Charlie Warzel: Thank you for having me.
Charlie Warzel: So in a piece you wrote this month, you say it’s getting harder to describe the extent to which a meaningful percentage of Americans have disassociated from reality. So naturally, I’m going to ask you to describe what you’re talking about here. How meaningful are we talking about and what’s different from, say, a year or two ago or even four years ago? Because, you know, we both reported on the pro-Trump QAnon conspiracy. So what’s different now?
Charlie Warzel: The thing that has changed is this notion of people who are sharing things that are truly fake, like fake A.I. generated images of disasters that happened, but the images didn’t happen.
Jane Coaston: Right. Right.
Charlie Warzel: And when they’re getting called out for these things, instead of deleting the post or–
Jane Coaston: Yeah.
Charlie Warzel: –saying, oh I’m sorry, I got duped, apologies. They’re coming out defensively and saying, no, no, no. It represents something that feels true.
Jane Coaston: Right.
Charlie Warzel: Or that I know to believe is true that has happened. And therefore, no, I’m not going to take it down. In fact, I’m proudly going to share this because it’s almost truer than true.
Jane Coaston: Right. The idea that it feels true. Which means that it is true. And the knock on effects are obvious. You know, we’ve seen a FEMA hurricane recovery team had to be relocated over safety concerns, about an armed militia. The town of Springfield, Ohio, was terrorized after Trump and his running mate, J.D. Vance, made false claims about Haitian migrants eating pets. Both of those stories were thoroughly and repeatedly debunked. But to your point, Vance even said, you know, we need to create stories to get media attention, because even if the stories are fake, then people start paying attention and then something will happen that will be good for us. So I think that that really speaks to your point.
Charlie Warzel: Yeah. And something I wanted to get at near the end of that piece that I think is very important is that the aggregate effect of this is that anyone whose job intersects or attends to reality is a person who will eventually become under attack by this type of misinformation or will be harassed or bullied or whatever in the real world. We’re going to see this probably with election workers, right? They’re going to be the targets of a lot of misinformation and harassment and probably threats and terrible stuff at the very local level, because they’re just the people who are standing in between reality and this conspiracy theory. And I think that just over a period of time, everyone’s going to spend some time in the meat grinder there, and it’s coming for everyone in a way that’s really grim and troubling.
Jane Coaston: So what’s the goal then? Is it to persuade people to buy into it, and if so, why? I mean, I would say in some cases money because culture war is a perfect money generator because you can’t win it and you can’t lose it. But from a political perspective, does this kind of alternative worldbuilding, does it motivate voters? Doe it pull in new people who are scared? Like, what does it do? Why are we here?
Charlie Warzel: So I think that there is definitely a group who are financially motivated. There’s a group who are politically motivated to rile people up, etc.. But uh something I wrote in the piece and it’s not my idea, but it’s borrowed from Michael Caulfield, who studies disinformation, misinformation at the University of Washington. He has long had this theory that we often think of misinformation as persuasion. Right? Here’s a person who goes about their time thinking normal thoughts, and then, you know, you throw a conspiracy theory at them and boom, they have, you know, a new worldview. He believes that it’s really actually about inoculating people from having to see the truth. Right? It’s to keep people in a bubble. It’s to reinforce a belief system. So rather than people having to at least even mentally kind of go through the exercise of why are storms getting worse, why are we having these 100 year rain events or whatever every three weeks in the fall in Florida? Instead of having to go through that, you can default to this other theory, right? That the government is engineering these things because it’s an election year. And of course they are, right. Or, you know, the government is trying to hurt communities in rural red areas so that they don’t go out and vote and, you know, they can protect their thing. It’s this idea that it’s not really persuasion. It’s it’s the opposite. It’s kind of an entrapment.
Jane Coaston: And I think that that goes to my next question, which is what happens when the alternative reality isn’t real? I think we’ve seen that already a couple of times. I was so struck by how, like the right wing comment sphere became convinced about a month and a half ago that Kamala Harris was mere seconds away from dumping Governor Tim Walz from the ticket because of something. And you saw all of these accounts talking to each other about how this was actually going to happen. It was so terrible and he was such a bad person and it was so obvious. And then in actual life, like he’s the most popular person running on either ticket. None of this happened. And, you know, I’ve argued in the past that the work to get to January 6th, 2021, started in March 2020, when the entire right wing sphere started saying that Trump couldn’t lose.
Charlie Warzel: Right.
Jane Coaston: And then he obviously did. So there is a point for everyone in which all the stuff you talk about or believe in has to run into reality. What happens then? And do we just get January 6th?
Charlie Warzel: I think there’s a spectrum of it, right? There are people who I’m sure ultimately get tired of this and disillusioned with it. You know, maybe it’s not a meaningful group, but I’m sure there are people out there for whom that happens. I’m sure there are people for whom it becomes a time when it feels so desperate that you do resort to violence or real life protest, things like that. But I go back to the point you made about not being able to lose or win a culture war. You just keep fighting it and you just keep finding ways, right? There’s sort of always a way to weasel yourself out of it, spin it back around into, you know, the grievance complex. Because again, it’s a situation where it’s never over, right? The next conspiracy is right around the corner, and that’s why it’s profitable.
Jane Coaston: Another tech writer named Jason Koebler argued in a similar piece that we’ve entered into what he called the Fuck It Era of like, AI slop and political messaging. And I’ve thought a lot about how I wrote in 2020 that Trump’s campaign was way too online, like incredibly online. And now the entire right wing sphere is so online and talking to one another in these siloed spaces. And so the AI slop and the political messaging is bouncing back and forth among the same group of people. So looking forward to November. How do you see these trends playing out in what’s expected to be a razor thin election?
Charlie Warzel: I don’t know that you can be too online at this moment for a campaign. I think regardless of what happens on Election Day, I think there’s going to be a very weird period of of chaos. Right. I think it’s inevitable. I think probably the only way that there isn’t a lot of post-election day chaos is like a Donald Trump landslide. Right. A semi decisive Harris win I think that will unfortunately trigger a lot of these world building misinformation systems to go into overdrive. So that’s sort of my grim prediction.
Jane Coaston: That is bleak. Is there anything more optimistic that you’re thinking about about this? Like, is there a way out of this or through it? Or under it? Something.
Charlie Warzel: I’m so I’m terrible at parties. So the two things that have me feeling a little bit optimistic are, one, Donald Trump is not in power. So I think that that’s like a very in terms of transfer of power, things like that. I think that that’s like it’s quite a meaningful point and it’s something that people should also keep in mind that it is not 2020. And I also think the next part of this is we tend to run these scenarios for the next election through the exact lens of the old one. And we have seen some of these playbooks run before. They will be run differently probably. But I also think like there is a group of people in place that are being vigilant about this. So I think that those two things are different from 2020 in a meaningful way. And I am slightly optimistic that at least this is going to be matched with a counteroffensive if something 2020ish begins to happen.
Jane Coaston: Charlie, thank you so much for joining me. It’s always really good to see you.
Charlie Warzel: Yeah, it’s great to see you. Thanks for having me.
Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with Atlantic’s staff writer, Charlie Warzel. We’ll link to his piece in our shownotes. We’ll get to the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts. Watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break].
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Jane Coaston: And now the news.
[sung] Headlines.
[clip of John Kirby] Deeply concerned and the president remains deeply concerned about any leakage of classified information into the public domain. That is not supposed to happen, and it’s unacceptable when it does. So he’s deeply concerned about that.
Jane Coaston: On Tuesday, the Federal Bureau of Investigations announced it is investigating a possible leak of classified documents that allegedly outlined Israel’s plans to attack Iran. The announcement comes days after the U.S. intelligence documents, some of which were labeled top secret, were posted on an Iranian linked telegram account. Here’s White House national security spokesman John Kirby speaking with reporters during a briefing on Monday.
[clip of John Kirby] You can rest assured that he will be actively monitoring the progress of the investigative effort to figure out how this happened.
Jane Coaston: The leak is considered one of the largest breaches of U.S. intelligence in years. The documents were allegedly from the National Security Agency and the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. Israeli officials say the leak has no impact on its plans to take further actions against Iran. Secretary of State Antony Blinken was in Israel Tuesday, where he met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. And according to the State Department, the conversation focused on the need for Israel to take additional steps to increase the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza. Blinken apparently took it a step further and said that if conditions don’t improve, Israel risks losing U.S. military support. He encouraged Netanyahu to use the killing of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar as an opportunity to secure a hostage deal and end Israel’s war in Gaza. Blinken and his team also questioned Netanyahu about the so-called general’s plan, in which members of the Israeli government have suggested taking full control of northern Gaza by starving and or shooting any civilians who refuse to leave. Blinken also met with other Israeli officials throughout the day, including Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, and postponed a scheduled visit to Jordan. He’s set to travel to countries in the Middle East this week to continue ceasefire discussions for the war in Gaza and the conflict with Hezbollah in Lebanon. Former mayor of New York City, Trump loyalist and disbarred lawyer Rudy Giuliani was ordered by a federal judge on Tuesday to turn over his Upper East Side penthouse to two Georgia election workers who he defamed. Giuliani first circulated a video of Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman counting ballots on election night, making false claims that they were committing election fraud. The video was played during Moss’s testimony before the United States House Select Committee on the January 6th attack.
[clip of Rudy Giuliani] Ruby Freeman and Shaye Freeman Moss and one other gentleman, quite obviously surreptitiously passing around USB ports as if they are vials of heroin or cocaine. I mean, it’s obvious to anyone who’s a criminal investigator or prosecutor, they are engaged in surreptitious, illegal activity again that day.
Jane Coaston: Moss and Freeman’s lawsuit claimed that Giuliani’s comments caused them emotional and reputational harm and put them in physical danger. Giuliani was found liable for defamation in August and ordered to pay $148 million to Moss and Freeman. But he doesn’t have $148 million. And his bankruptcy filing got tossed because he wouldn’t cooperate with the courts. So now he gets to hand over his apartment, several luxury watches, a signed Joe DiMaggio jersey and a Mercedes previously owned by Lauren Bacall. Donald Trump is set to go on the Joe Rogan experience this week. Politico was the first to report that the former president will record a conversation with Rogan on Friday. The upcoming interview is seemingly part of the Trump campaign’s push to reach young male voters. A demographic that Trump is popular with that doesn’t always actually show up to the polls. Rogan’s podcast boasts 14 million followers on Spotify, most of whom are men ages 18 to 34 and is generally known to be friendly to conservative voices. But he’s never had Trump on the show. In fact, Rogan has said in the past that Trump and his team have approached him multiple times to have the former president on the show. But the podcaster has always turned them down. Here he is on the Lex Fridman podcast in 2022.
[clip of Joe Rogan] By the way, I’m not a Trump supporter in any way, shape or form. I’ve had the opportunity to have him on my show more than once. I’ve said no every time I don’t want to help him. I’m not interested in helping him.
Jane Coaston: But maybe now he is. Vice President Kamala Harris’s campaign is also reportedly in talks with Rogan for a potential interview, though that hasn’t been confirmed. And that’s the news. [music break] One more thing. Over the last few weeks, a lot of people have been noticing the same basic phenomenon. Man, Donald Trump spends a lot of time screaming about how he wants to punish his enemies. In fact, that’s kind of his whole deal now. Sure, his campaign will tell us that he’s very concerned about access to IVF. He isn’t. Or that he cares deeply about nutrition. Come on. But what he wants to talk about is how much he wants to put the people who don’t like him in prison or send the military after them, or some horrifying combination of the two. A new report from NPR found that Trump has threatened to prosecute or punish anyone he doesn’t like more than 100 times. And we’ve got the tape to prove it. Let’s start with his attacks on the media. And that’s a big statement because he does it a lot. But let’s talk specifically about CBS and the show 60 Minutes.
[clip of Donald Trump] Think of it, 60 Minutes, CBS. And they ought to lose their license and they ought to take it off the air.
Jane Coaston: But we all know that 60 Minutes is hardly alone. The threats are to all of the press.
[clip of Donald Trump] And I abused them also. So, you know, I do that.
[clip of unnamed reporter] What did you say? Did you target them and say, I’m going to go attack media and I’m going to go after them? Is that part of a strategy that you had or no, that was just–
[clip of Donald Trump] No.
[clip of unnamed reporter] If you come after me, I’m going to come after you.
[clip of Donald Trump] No. I think it’s a natural instinct with me, you know.
[clip of unnamed reporter] Yeah.
[clip of Donald Trump] Like it would be for you.
[clip of unnamed reporter] Right.
[clip of Donald Trump] And other people.
[clip of unnamed reporter] Right.
[clip of Donald Trump] That know how to win a little bit.
[clip of unnamed reporter] Sure.
Jane Coaston: And then there were the threats to send reporters to jail.
[clip of Donald Trump] And if the reporter doesn’t want to tell you, it’s bye bye, the reporter goes to jail.
Jane Coaston: But the threats aren’t limited to the media. There are, of course, his threats to President Joe Biden.
[clip of Donald Trump] I will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the United States of America, Joe Biden and the entire Biden crime family.
Jane Coaston: And a reminder to all of us how he will dic– I mean, preside over the country if he gets back into office.
[clip of Donald Trump] As president you have tremendous it’s called extreme power. You have extreme power.
Jane Coaston: And, of course, this classic.
[clip of Donald Trump] I am your warrior, I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution. I am your retribution.
Jane Coaston: No, thank you. Now, we could be here for another 20 minutes listening to more times Trump threatened someone because of reasons that only make sense to him. Or I could simply remind you that when you vote, you can help us avoid all of this and avoid putting that guy back into the White House.
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Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a review. Contemplate what you would do with Rudy Giuliani’s Upper East Side apartment after you smudge it to rid it of the ancient spirits, of course, and tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading and not just contemplating the non-reality of Internet reality and whether it reflects the triumph of postmodernism, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane coaston and good for you, Shaye and Ruby. Good for you. [music break] What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Raven Yamamoto. Our producer is Michell Eloy. We had production help today from Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our executive producer is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.
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