The dark history of retinol, the causal myth of bacterial vaginosis, and Abel Selaocoe crosses time and cultures in new album. DeRay interviews Nic Stone about her new book, Dear Manny.

 

News

Retinol: The Skin-Care Ingredient With a Horrifying History

A Third of Women Get This Infection. The Fix: Treat Their Male Partners.

South African cellist Abel Selaocoe fosters dialogue across time and cultures in a new album

House votes to censure Rep. Al Green with Democrats’ help

Louisiana college student’s death investigated as possible hazing incident

 

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TRANSCRIPT

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. Happy women’s history month, and we are back to cover the underreported news with regard to race, justice, equity and what’s going on in the world. And this week, our guest news contributor is Sharhonda Bossier. She’s a thought leader who started her career in education as a public school teacher and is now the CEO of Education Leaders of Color. She’s a lifelong organizer. Incredible woman. You will love her. And she really pushed me to think about some things differently this week. And our interview is with none other than the author, Nic Stone. Nic is just such an incredible young adult author. Just amazing. Her newest book, Dear Manny, just came out. It’s the third and final installment of the young adult fiction series that started with Dear Martin. Here we go. [music break]

 

[AD BREAK]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay, we are back. There’s a lot that went on in the past week, and we are excited to have another voice on the podcast. This is DeRay at @deray on Twitter. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: This is Myles E. Johnson at @pharaohrapture on Instagram. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And I’m Sharhonda Bossier. You can find me on LinkedIn if you are also still stuck in the bad place there. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Are you really off socials? 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I really am off socials. Honestly like um I’ve known for a long time that the people who own those companies and platforms don’t share my values. But watching them pal around with Trump was really the end of it for me. And it was about reclaiming my attention span and also just trying to be more intentional about like building real relationships with my friends. I was using social media as a passive way to pretend to still be in people’s lives, and I just, I wasn’t. And so just even the stuff that I talk about with my childhood best friends on Instagram is ve– is very different than what I talk with them about on like other ways of communication. So it shifted fundamentally my relationships with people I care about. So it’s been the right move. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Myles are you staying on? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: You’re no I am bleep like slowly bleeding off. I feel like sometimes because my relationship with X is that very similar to like a crack addicts relationship with crack cocaine. So I’ll have like these months of no Twitter no X and then like for a week I’ll just like be in the basement shooting up um aka being on X and saying my thoughts and and whatever. But um I said to myself, you’re just singing my song right now. Because I said to myself, when I moved here to the Midwest, like, this was kind of my phase out of being plugged into a machine that I knew was annihilating both my spirit and my integrity, and I just saw what it was doing for other people and for myself. And I said, oh, you have to. It’s the tar baby. So you fight long enough with the tar baby, you are then going to be soaked in tar yourself. You can’t fight with it without being in tar yourself. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I think I’m on it y’all. I think I’m just chillin. I don’t know, I think I’m. All the things I agree with and I’m like I don’t know, how do I reach the people? I’m on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. I feel stuck. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And it’s it’s about your temperament too. Like even just being friends with you for as long as I have been DeRay, you just have a different temperament around stuff like and I think if you are sunnier. I’m you know and you’re optimistic. And if you have kind of certain beliefs, like I think you can build the armor to do it. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I think you’ve also been much more intentional about building a life offline the last few years, because that wasn’t always true. And I think, I think you have given yourself perspective and and forced a like a division that wasn’t always true for you. I think it’s been healthy for you to do that, like as a friend, like I’ve observed that. And so I think if you can figure out the balance, you can figure out the balance. But I was cussing people out that I know in real life in their Instagram DMs, and I was like, I don’t need to be doing this, you know what I mean? Like I can just wait till I see you to cuss you out. I don’t need to be–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh that’s funny. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: –typing this with my thumbs. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: If you don’t have I don’t give a F button, you know, like and I hate to be like astrology about it, but–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh goodness [?].

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m an Aquarius placement. So you can be. I do believe it. Like politics can get you so upset. And then you need that button that says, okay, release. Where some people don’t have it, they just get more worse and worse and madder and madder and and whatever. And yeah. It gets ugly.

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Listen, I had my first Christmas season without tamales this year because I was arguing with one of my Mexican friends who voted for Trump, and I was like, look at me hurting myself. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Now hold on. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Okay. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Now hold on. [laughter]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay. Y’all are wild. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m happy it’s tamales, he had his Trump tamales. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Listen, and I did not. Because I’m arguing in his DMs and I needed a different way of being. So yes. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Well, that was a great segue to Trump and there. You know, every week feels like a world of stuff going on. I wanted to start with the not state of the Union, but the the uh speech to a joint session of Congress that Trump did, where Trump repeated a lot of things that were not true. My father actually called me this morning and was like my father is like way more plugged in to politics than he’s ever been, he’s like DeRay did you hear him talk about the transgender mice. That’s not even a thing he da da da da da. He’s like, did you? So my father was like amped uh and then Al Green gets censured and ten Democrats vote for it, which truly. I’m like y’all the world is falling apart. How did you support this? But what were your takes on the not state of the Union speech, the censure, the response from the Democrats? Like, what is the what’s the what? 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I think my reaction has been like, damn, the Democrats really could have tried to do something because he is just like steamrolling them left and right. I think the censure feels like an evolution or an extension of what I’ve been observing among white Democrats in particular. And that is an attempt at like getting white people back to the party in a way that I just don’t think is going to happen. You know, I live in LA, right? Gavin Newsom is my governor. You’ve probably seen also that he has sort of evolved his stance on, like trans athletes and youth sports, etc., etc., etc.. And I’m just like, y’all are trying to out Trump Trump. You know what I mean? And it’s like watching that. It feels like an attempt at saving their own necks and their own attempts at like, making sure that they have, they stand a chance of being reelected than it is about standing on principle for anything. And the truth of the matter is, the political center in this country is already so far right, that, like the Democrats are um, I think, hastening honestly, um our um our shift in that direction. And it’s really sad to see. It’s also sad to see and frustrating to see a party that has, like really um co-opted the language and the tactics of civil rights, not stand up for an elder Black elected official. You know um, because they would say that they are about that. And like all of that is, is is just like I mean, we sort of knew it, but like, damn, did we see it this past week? You know. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I mean, I echo everything, everything that you’ve been saying, um echoing it for a few weeks now. I think the big thing with the Democrats for me or I don’t think, yeah, the Democrats, but everything my mind is kind of always in 2028. Is how they’re just gutting any potential for a victory in 2028. And so here’s the thing. When Republicans want to get more power, they go further to their right. So now you see a tent that includes both Nelly and neo nazis. Those are two people I didn’t think would be able to get along. But Democrats want to court the neo-Nazis. They want to they want to or they want to court people who are not that intense in the MAGA to go come back to the Democrats because they don’t want any type of interaction with anybody on the further left. And I think that, to me is not just a misstep, but I there’s times I find it disgusting. So when you talk about Gavin Newsom sitting down with what’s his name? Chris? 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Charlie Kirk. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Chris? 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Right? Charlie Kirk yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Charlie Kirk. Yeah. I’m glad I don’t know his name. My mind is still my own. [laugh] Um. But when I looked up the misogynistic, the homophobic, transphobic, white supremacist rhetoric he said. And Gavin Newsom is sitting down with him, but he won’t sit down with somebody who has further left ideas on what’s going on in Palestine, or further left ideas about what this society should look like. Real conversations about prison abolition, not saying that you’re going to implement it on day one, or even if you even believe in it, but you won’t even sit down and have those conversations, but you will sit down with a bigot in a tie and say that your son really likes him, and this is you trying to flirt with the right. That to me, I find gross like that. That’s the feeling I get. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I’m interested in Myles and Sharhonda. What do you say to the people who say that the loud left doesn’t vote? That there’s not necessarily like a political win in courting the loud left? Because the wild right participates in the process, is what people have said, but that there’s no, like, political win in courting the far, far left because they are the people who don’t vote in the end. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I think that’s true. I think when you look at things that happen on the far left. It does uh on the far right the the benefit is the far right wants to establish this establishment, this government. And part of going further and further left is a lot of the rhetoric does talk about revolution, which does talk about a kind of deconstruction or disappearing of the systems that have dominated us. So I do understand that. But I guess my big thing is you need to be courting these people. What were you doing that you couldn’t court the people on the far left? You’re saying like even so, for instance, I think that you might have sent this in there was a thing where the trans issues and saying we stuck up for trans issues. And, you know, Chappell Roan said we didn’t do anything and stuff like that. I’m like, A, Chappell Roan is not an activist. B, I was like what, was I counting or doing letters, but like, A, Chappell Roan is not an activist. B um, you were you were enticed by rhetoric around trans people that the far right fed you. If you want to talk about actual trans issues in the and want to activate people who are on the left or on the far left, why don’t you include things that excite them, which is material changes. So trans issues are still economic and education issues. They’re still issues around safety. They’re still issues around um trans people being being the leading in homelessness. We’re the lead in under education, the lead in um lead in unemployment. So all those things are still trans issues. But the only time you bring up trans things is when you’re talking about this myopic discussion around sports that affects ten people in the nation. You know, like that’s to me, that’s the reason why you haven’t activated people. And even um last thing I’ll say is, even during Biden’s administration, where Biden did this and a lot of Democrats were saying Biden did this and it’s just a messaging thing. On further reflection, I don’t know if it was just a messaging thing. I think the things that Biden was doing was like he was running a democ– a country in 1998 for the Democratic Party, and that is not what it looks like for 2025. Those things do not excite uh the people on the left, and it is the Democrats job to figure that out. Not to say, well, they’re not coming out, let’s put it down. It’s to figure out and and think tank around what is going to activate these people. But it seems like we don’t get that. But there’s 10,000 articles and television shows around why Hillbilly Appalachia decided to vote Trump despite it [?].

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. I’m not sure that the radical right votes any more than the sort of loud left, to be honest with you. Right. Like those people who think of themselves as, like, sovereign, you know, people. I’m not sure they’re rolling up to the polls either. I also think that we underestimate the degree to which most people in this country are politically very practical. To Myles’s point, if you give them something that feels like it impacts something they really care about, they will show up. The Democrats have not provided a meaningful alternative on literally anything. And so why should I show up when my life might not feel materially different? And it I hate to say it, but people are self-interested in that way. And then I think, lastly, the Democrats have not done what they need to do to protect voting rights, to make sure that people who have been disenfranchized because they have a felony on their record or whatever, could vote again. And like we see active efforts in places like Georgia and Florida to dissuade people who might have been able to sort of regain their right to vote uh to do that. And so, like, I think the Democrats have an electorate that they could mobilize if they care to engage them on issues that mattered. And if they care to say that people deserve the right to vote again after they have served their time, but they have not meaningfully done any of that, in my opinion. And so they haven’t even engaged the people who are eligible to vote and interested in voting um which they should think about. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I do think, too, you know, some of the, and I’ll be interested to see what you have to say. What both of you to say about this um is that, you know, Biden, for his faults, did do a lot of good stuff that nobody knows about. You know, it is. It becomes this weird thing wehre like, you know, even if there are great things that happen, if nobody can recount them, if nobody understood. Like I think about the trans community being able to get passports like was a thing that Biden did that. You know, that the single biggest increase in snap ever food stamps was Biden. Like there were these things that were pretty good that like materially touched people’s lives. Like there were a lot of those things. Um. You know, the first ever restrictions on use of force. No knocks. Like there were real things. And I say that only to say that when you ask people who for whom tracking them is not their work, they literally can’t name any of them. And that is a real that is a real challenge um because Sharhonda’s push was like um, give people and yours too Myles, give people a reason to come to the polls. And I, I do worry that they’re the Democrats have done a lot of stuff historically, have told really bad stories about it. People don’t necessarily understand it. Um. And I, I don’t know, I just want to say that because I don’t think it’s true that the Dems haven’t done anything. I do think they’ve done a lot of really good stuff that has changed people’s lives, and people can’t map it back to the Democrats. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I don’t think the Democrats have wanted us to know. I, I think that they think it’s a liability come election time for us to know. Right. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh. Interesting. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And so I think I think some of this is their own fault. Right. Like instead of saying like, these are the things that we are doing and these are the things that we stand by. Like who going to check me boo, essentially. Like, they don’t do that. They try and do it under cover of night. Hope you notice and hope it doesn’t make them a target for a more organized right. And and and more likely to be vindictive right. Um. But that’s not a winning strategy either. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That’s actually, you know, I didn’t think about that. But that is true of Kamala and the police, because the Biden Kamala administration held more police departments accountable than any federal DOJ in the history of this country, like they did it. And she would not talk about pol– you’re like [?] you guys did it. You did it. It was you did the thing. And you are right. They did not want people to talk about it. And I actually hadn’t thought about it in that way. But that is a that is what’s it called like an unforced error. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I love the idea of them hiding, them hiding their kind of like left leaning policies because they still want to be able to court uh you know, Liz Cheney. And be able to parade Liz Cheney around and stuff. So that makes a lot that that that put a light bulb in my head. I do. And you know, I probably I just feel like sometimes I hope I’m not just irritating the listener with repeating things over and over. But I do think that there should be a type of um separation of things that we implement that are classed. You know, like, yes, passports contain, do you know how many Americans let’s stop talking about trans people. How many Americans don’t have a passport? Now think about how many trans, if we talk about the economic things that uh and the and the and the social structures that uh limit trans people’s destinies. Do you know how many trans people are not worried about a passport? You know, and I think that that is a thing that I would love for Democrats and just people on the left in general, to think about is the solutions that are classed and specifically to not just classed meeting money, but the educated class versus the uneducated class. Um. And and who who actually feels this. Because we need people to feel that their lives are differently. And that we need for people to feel and know that they get $150 more a month from whatever, because this person’s in office. And that that just didn’t happen. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I did want to ask too. I don’t know if you saw the video of Maxine Waters being essentially being like the election was rigged and, you know, it’s I when I talked to my father this morning he also was like DeRay something ain’t right in the water. He said, oh, I can explain it, but something don’t sound right about this last election. What do you all make of Waters’ claim? But this undercurrent that’s like Elon really probably did something with this. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I think obviously, obviously. And I’m like over here cause we talked about this. We been–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Tin foil hat. Put it on. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: We have, it’s not even tinfoil no more. Because what, now the tin foil is um too expensive. Because there’s tariffs on the tinfoil. Because y’all ain’t put the tinfoil on when he first got elected. I think that here’s the thing about it. And here’s how I and here and here’s how I feel and I don’t know why all the when people decide to play clean politics versus dirty politics. I felt like something was going on with the election. We I think we said that the first week or two of doing the podcast. But here’s how I really feel about it, too. Even if there’s nothing going on with the election. Say there is and make up some shit. And like and and still push it. That’s what they do. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: 100%. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: That’s and they, they don’t let any type of win just happen easily. And now you have enough evidence and enough people feeling strange about it that it can happen. Nobody on our side is going to go storm the Capitol Hill. Go do something about it. But now that we’re in March and you’re going to say it slyly, you lost all the momentum. And and and all the energy you could have had to really, even if you couldn’t get him out of here, you get to uh to me, that’s that’s a fire that can keep on burning. If people feel like this is somebody who stole their election and stole their vote. That is something that’s going to get people out in bigger numbers than what we’re seeing right now. And I feel like they totally missed the the gate to do that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Trump was saying the election was about to be stolen before it was over. He was–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly, exactly. Listen, I, I, I don’t look I love a good government conspiracy theory, okay? Like I’m all in. I’m like, yes, absolutely. Somebody was back there, you know. But I will also say that I think one of the reasons that people haven’t mobilized around this is, in my experience, people were surprised to figure out the folks in their circle who voted for Trump. So I do a lot of like multiracial coalition building work. And one of the things that came up on the, you know, the back end of the um, the, the election and and the people looking at the exit polls is a lot of the non-Black people in my personal and professional circles were looking at the exit polling data and they were like, nah, not the Latinos I know. Nah, not the Asian-Americans I know. Not not the Pacific Islanders I know. And then they started asking their uncles and their cousins, and they were like, oh shit, no, it is the people I know, right? And so I think people were like, oh, I’ve had a whole bunch of secret Trump supporters in my family. So if it’s possible that that’s true in my circle it’s possible that it is true in so many other circles. So I think people just think that they got, yeah, just caught on their back foot and unaware of how people in their families and friend groups were actually going to vote. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Do you think that the chaos will get so much that this implodes, that like, you know, the park rangers got fired? There’s obviously the drama between the FAA and Elon, Rubio saying that he feels sidelined as the secretary of state. The Zelensky meeting was a nightmare. Um. You know, he might replace Starlink, the Verizon contract at the FAA with Starlink. Like, they’re just people are being impacted. And the farmers are being screwed right now. That like the totality of the impact, does feel like it’s mounting and mounting. The tariffs just got rescinded. But there might be more, do you think especially Myles, to your point about class being an issue, it seems like we’ll reach a point where people with the least amount of money will will be impacted in a way that feels really intense and sudden, and all those government employees who are losing their jobs, you know, most Americans are a paycheck or two paychecks away from homelessness. And a part of me just feels like this seven months of that just feels really really wild. To like, wild in a way that feels politically unviable. But but who am I to know? I don’t know. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So kind of like the depression piece that I bring up often and me seeing the numbers of people who are depressed, the people who are anxious. Even when you think about as I’m on my um on on my re-health journey, whatever the the hell you call it. But thinking about the different components that make somebody maybe make unhealthy choices. We are in a society that is a depressed, anxious, and suicidal society. So you can’t look at these rates and say um these suicide rates amongst men or these suicide rates amongst people, and say that this doesn’t affect people’s energy towards things. And [sigh] unfortunately, once you are once your account is negative 50, you know how they say, wealth, once you’re like have $5 million, $6 million feels pretty much the same. It works the same when you’re in negative 50 in your account versus -150. So my it just is true. And so my, my, my hunch is saying that I think the thing that’s going to happen is some type of terroristic threat or nuclear thing. I think that kind of thing is going to energize people to uh be motivated. But the economic stuff, I it just is not hitting people. And I think that when you hit people um in the arm for so long with the same bat, in the same way, the arm just gets numb. And I think you’re seeing a numb, depressed people um not able to kind of find their nerve, and it’s going to take something uh more more radically bad in order to activate the same amounts of people that we’ve seen activated even ten years ago in my opinion. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: So you’re saying that they’ll, people will have to make a connection between, like, the lack of safety writ large that Trump has encount– like created? Are the planes not enough? Oof. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So we need but hink. But okay. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh, this is a class thing again. You’re like a lot of most people–

 

Myles E. Johnson: I kind of keep on saying that because I’m like even the even the DEI conversation I’m like, that is that is aimportant thing, but that is a privileged persons thing. So I think what most people don’t want is for people to think that there are there are terrorists coming in and blowing things up or there’s a nuclear threat. And I think those are the type of things that people are going to get anxious about and be moved about. Depression, anxiety be damned, debt be damned. The depression that comes from poverty be damned. That is the type of moment that I think is going to activate it, or it is going to be these little fires that get kind of put out, but not really and and we’re just going to see that for four years. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I think people are willing to pay more for eggs if it means that the brown person they don’t like is deported to El Salvador, you know? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: [?]. [banter]

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I think they’re like, you know what? That seems like a good deal to me. Sure. You know? [music break]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come. 

 

[AD BREAK] 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Let’s transition to the hazing death. The young, young Black student who was killed. Um. So sad. His picture has been everywhere. He was celebrated at um, Caleb Wilson was celebrated at Mardi Gras. It was that was beautiful to see if you saw it online. He was a junior at Southern University and A&M College. I think they’ve suspended all fraternities and sororities for the time being after his death. Um. And if you do not know this story, he was pledging, and apparently there was some sort of hazing incident where he got punched in the chest repeatedly. He died. And there have been conflicting stories about whether they changed his clothes, moved his body before they called. Now, one there has been one arrest in the case, but it has brought up a lot of conversations about fraternities and sororities and pledging. And I was not in the fraternity. And there’s been even a conversation about people not in fraternities and sororities not being able to talk about this. But it’s a thing that happened in the past week, and we did not talk about it last week so I wanted to see if anybody had thoughts. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, when I was an undergrad uh and all of my friends were thinking about pledging, there was a similar incident at Cal State, LA where a young woman who was pledging AKA, drowned. Um. And I think I’m also not, you know, part of a sorority and I and and. This is this is this might be a class thing actually for me. Right. Like, I didn’t know anybody who wasn’t one of my teachers who was part of a Greek organization. Right. And then I went to a predominantly white um college where, you know, like we didn’t have big Black Greek presence. So if you were going to pledge, you had to pledge a citywide chapter. And I sort of knew enough to know, like, that’s not really what you wanted to do in undergrad either. And also, I was from the hood. So you weren’t gonna tell me nothing. You know, you were not like I was not about to stand in front of these, like bougie Black girls who were gonna tell me I couldn’t do this. I had to wear that. I had to be up at this time. I was like, no, baby, I I I fight. So we not we not gonna do that. But I think that what ends up happening in situations like this is that we have not interrogated why these practices have to continue as a way of getting membership into these institutions, and what we are asking young people to risk in order to do it. Right. So like when, you know, former students come to me and and often we’ll say, like, hey, I’m thinking about pledging or I think I want to do this. And again, recognizing my limited insight and visibility into that, having dated people who pledge, particularly men who pledged, it’s really traumatic. And some of that trauma does not go away like I have have had conversations with men about their pledging experience that sits with them just like any other child abuse experience. And I wish that Greek organizations were just much more willing to take a hard look in the mirror and say, how do we actually have a conversation about stamping this out? That’s not lip service from people who are legacy. That’s not lip service from people who are in, you know, that sort of national kind of bureaucratic operations of these organizations, but that we’re really about like going deep on these campuses. I think that we we see enough of this and honestly across race uh because we see young white people, you know, die too that like it’s really time to figure out, like, why are we so married to these practices? And why do we think that this is the way that we have to bond? Um. I never, never understood it. Um. And so you write people finna be in the comments talking about that I should shut up. But I I I think yeah, I think we have to be honest about it. I do also think it’s really interesting that, I mean, pledging is not cheap either, right? Like that was also a barrier for me in undergrad. And so I really do think it’s interesting to think about people being second, third, fourth generation members of these organizations and having to endure this kind of treatment in the name of fraternity. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: This was a tough one. So a couple of things. I think that I reflect on my 20s a lot because of the odd way that I lived my 20s. So because I didn’t go to college, I now see at 34 me not going to college as a ability to kind of maintain this almost cold observerative oppositional way of looking at things. And it feels very clear to me that the things that are happening are cult like. You know, that’s been my that’s been my uh the most interesting thing. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Is is that woman paying you? The knitting culter?

 

Myles E. Johnson: No. No, no. I should be paying–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Y’all haven’t gotten her on yet. Right? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Correct. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Y’all still waiting on that?

 

Myles E. Johnson: Listen, I should I should be paying her becaus it it just clicks things for me, you know. And I’ve always been really interested specifically in the ’70s in the, in the, in, in what the how the ’60s birthed the what happened in the ’70s and, you know, the, the Manson murders happening in ’69 and, and, and just when you turn everything into the marketplace, people look for church and home. And now that we’re in this second wave of turning everything into a market. These are my own ideas at this point. But, but, but uh, but once you turned uh, once we have this second wave of the marketplace, where is everything is a digital marketplace. There is such a need for home and familiarity and safety, and also with Black people that has always lived in Black people, that has always lived in Black people, is the desire to assimilate and to gain power. And these organizations have been gateways to get such assimilation and power, and that has all and and when you look at the practices that are happening inside of Greek organizations, and you look at the practices that happen in the military, they’re the same. And I promise you, the military. Now, this is what I got from her. The military is its own cult as well to be able to go to, to be able to go through it. And um, and when you look at the uh, when you look at the practices and I think Black people and I’ve been thinking about this a lot and I think that’s is the reason why I’ve been so fascinated with it is because she’s a frilly white lady. But as a Black person, I see so many things that have been called Black excellence, Black exceptionalism, Black joy that are actually um these, these, these cult like moments where Black people have to be smiling, um dandy sambos instead of how we really feel um because we want to accumulate assimilation or power. And I think this is an example of the toxicity of that. And I think that’s how come it’s been a lightning rod, because I do think there’s something in this culture that’s happening right now that people want to be done with these organizations in quotes, institutions in quotes that are really these uh legalized cults. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That makes sense to me. How do you reconcile that, though, with the, you know, the history of my sister is in a sorority and uh the history of needing solidarity, camaraderie, the service orientation, especially in a world of white supremacy, making sure that there are organized groups of Black people who have some sort of relationship and kinship to them feels powerful. And I think we all know people who who probably didn’t have awful pledging experiences. Right, who had more say. I know some I know some people who had some not great ones, and I know some people who had some okay ones. Um. And who for whom the relationship has actually been powerful in life and and not necessarily cultish. Um. But, but and um sort of membership based organization like others would be. How do you make space for that? I mean, and not obviously not in defense of hazing because the boy should be alive today, and that is sort of wild. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: But I think that’s why. That’s why I’m like, what’s the strategy that these Greek organizations are putting in place to actually talk to young people about about not hazing, right. It’s like they know it’s still happening. Um. And I don’t know what kind of guidance they’re giving or what kind of consequences. Right. Like, it feels like there’s only ever a consequence when the outcome is something as tragic as this, right? But it’s like you have to know that it’s still going on. I do think that community is important. I do understand the legacy of these organizations. I understand what they give people, particularly even at PWI’s right. I think one of the reasons why people wanted to pledge the city wide chapter when I was an undergrad was because they were like, look, we are 0.2% of, you know, students on this campus. I’m looking for people who look like me. I’m looking for community. I just think that the consequences are too great for these organizations to not be more serious about, like, confronting this and and and dealing with it. I mean, this young person is facing what manslaughter charges in Louisiana, which, as we know, is the incarceration capital of the world, you know. Um. And like the consequences to him. And I know that we’re thinking about Caleb right now. Right. But the consequences to him and the other young men who were involved and what they thought of as a ritual, right, are also too great for us to not be more serious about dealing with it. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I do think that what we’re seeing is a for–, a weather forecast. So I think it just has less to do with what um what we want to happen or where can we find kinship. I just think these institutions are probably dying. A, we know that Black men, unlike Black women, are, are are not getting into college. Um. We know just men in general in America, in college. And and that kind of mobility is just doesn’t seem to be happening for um for men. So I wonder what that would do to Greek institutions in general, but it just reminds me of the Black church. That it feels like a autopsy on a dying thing than it feels about trying to keep this thing alive. I think that no that it’s done, it’s going to wither out. I would be it would be interesting to see where these organizations are even 50 years in the future and how strong they are. And I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re mirroring other Black led organizations like the Black Church, the Democratic Party, these other places where Black people were kind of the the glue inside of them, the soul inside of them. It seems like those institutions are dying. I think that this might be another thing. And another one of those things and this incident is um is is is the is the is the I hate saying it like this, but is the tumor showing that there’s something that’s already dying and on its way out. In my opinion. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I have seen a lot more people pledge alumni or grad chapters, right? Or pledge grad chapter. Um. And I think partially probably to avoid some of this. Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So there’s no hazing when you do it older. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: That’s my understanding. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Or less? 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And also like if you were if you were poor in undergrad, you ain’t had no money to pledge, you know? So.

 

Myles E. Johnson: Absolutely, absolutely. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Let’s go to our news. I’ll start with the news. So my news is about retinol. Um. I before I became into the gym, I was into skincare. That was my trade off. I was like, at least my skin is going to look great. I might be a little scrawny, but that’s okay because I got retinol, retinup, retindown, I got serums and moisturizers, and then I was like, oh, I think I could do the gym. But I did not know that before retina was approved by the FDA in 1971, that it was tested on hundreds of incarcerated people in Philadelphia as a part of a program that was run by a dermatologist named Albert Kligman. And Teen Vogue did a really solid write up on this, And they remind us that between 1951 and 1974, Doctor Kligman and his team experimented on a ton of vulnerable people, most of whom were held at the Holmesburg prison in Philadelphia, and they needed people to test on, so there his goal was pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, which is where retinol comes from, and chemical warfare agents. And the way that they did this is patch tests. So they would put untested creams and chemicals on people’s bodies. So backs, faces, and arms as well as biopsies of their organs. They would give them injections and a host of other things. And some people were technically paid. So one former participant, because there’s a book about this called Acres of Skin: Human Experiments at Holmesburg Prison. One guy is quoted as saying, I got a needle in my spine for $7. Mind you, he’s incarcerated. So as you can imagine, people left with all types of scars, injuries, um and there’s now a book that is that has come out about it. And women were also involved in the quote, “experiments,” of course, Doctor Kligman and the way that his team talks about it is that they were volunteers and they were testing out tampons and other things on women as well. And as you can imagine, the rationale was that it was cheap. They were a consistent population. They were, you know, prison jobs were scarce and they didn’t have to pay them um a living wage. So I brought it up because I was fascinated by this. I you know, when we say everything comes back to race. It is true. But this is the intersection of race and criminal justice. And we obviously know about Tuskegee, the Tuskegee experiment. But I literally um I just didn’t know about this. And there’s more to this story. People sued and it was shut down in 1974 and blah, blah, blah. But the discovery of Retina was a huge professional success and financial success for Doctor Kligman. And um I just wanted to bring it here. And, you know, he died in 2010 at 93. Um. And he is quoted as saying, I’m on the medical ethics committee at Penn, and I still don’t see there having been anything wrong with what we were doing. And he’s quoted in 20, 2006 as saying that shutting down the experiments at the prison was, quote, “a big mistake.” So I’ll stop there. But I wanted to bring it because this is something that truly surprised me. I was fascinated by it and I wanted to see what you all thought. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I think my reaction was, holy shit, that was yesterday, right? Um. And I think that when we think about the history of medical experimentation on people, particularly like Black people, we think of it as something that happened so long ago. Um. And thinking about the fact that, like, you know, my mom was in high school, you know, um and I think I’m always just struck by how recent our history is, which I, you know, um is one thing. I also think about, you know, as we were just talking earlier about legacy and what we pass down from generation to generation. Right? This is a person who never expressed remorse, never came to have an intersectional lens on how what he did targeted a very specific population. Right? Uh.  And how if he had tried to target different populations or communities, it just would not have been okay. Um. And you think about all of the people he mentored, right? All of the studies he was able to greenlight. Um. And you think about um what was underpinning people’s assumptions about who made for the best test subjects, right? Or the most viable test subjects. And it’s just um yeah. Holy shit. That was yesterday. [laugh] And um this man’s legacy is long, and people he has trained and mentored are still conducting research and still greenlighting research. Um. And so it’s what’s the what’s the shift about how we think about um yeah. Ethics in in science. Um. And you know, we were talking before we officially started recording today. I have a similar set of concerns around AI and around how we are rolling out AI and how we are, you know, talking to young people, particularly low income young people of color, about the promise and potential of AI. Um. And no one is ever talking about the ethics of science when they’re on the cutting edge of something that feels like it could be game changing. And I’m sure that they felt like they were on the cutting edge of something that felt like it could be game changing. And so in order to get that breakthrough, people are always willing to set aside ethics and morals. And it’s terrifying. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Myles, before you go, I just want to. So it’s this Vogue article is is a recap in some ways of the book Acres of skin: human experiments at Holmesburg prison. The title Acres of Skin comes from a quote that Kligman gave when he entered the prison, and the quote is, “all I saw before me were acres of skin. It was like a farmer seeing a fertile field for the first time.” 

 

Myles E. Johnson: 40 acres of skin might it be? So excuse me, I feel like y’all might know more than me, but the um the former Teen Vogue editor in chief Elaine Welteroth. Yeah. So of course, I think the article and what it and what the and what the book, what the what the book details is disgusting. I think what the article shines a light on is um, is, is gross and disgusting and but but well connects with the history of um humiliation um and uh and the and the use of Black person as a as as as as science subjects. So I do think about Henrietta Lacks, I do even think about this into this story kind of uh to me, intersects between Henr– Henrietta Lacks and Venus Hottentop because of the beauty in the science and and the all of it and the and the and the using of um Black bodies for uh for for white beauty. You know, even if you’re a Black person using these products, it’s oftentimes to accomplish a type of beauty that whiteness has told you is the new beauty and that, and that and that beauty is shifting and not static because it needs to keep on growing, because you can never attain it. I think my thing with it is with reading this article is I’m a little bit over. Um. I know there’s a new editor in chief, but I think Elaine Welteroth was the was the uh editor in chief who kind of brought this type of investigative, critical social lens to Teen Vogue. And I think that that was interesting in 2016, 2017, it just reads totally empty and like, neoliberal bullshit. When you’re a Teen Vogue talking about the history of retinol. So what are you doing Teen Vogue  what like? So you’re showing it to us, you’re going to go viral. You’re going to be able to paint yourself with these critiques that are seen as leftist and critical, but you’re not doing anything for it. In fact, I’m sure that the very magazine that you got has beauty, beauty companies that are going to be using retinol. So I of, it’s a weird it’s a weird thing because I feel like in 2025, this is one of the reasons why, as a collective left and a cultural left, we’re not further, because we keep on letting companies be able to annihilate and destroy us and also sell us um, sell us our own critiques and be able to benefit from both sides, be able to play from both sides without actually having any moral, um with or without having any moral gumption, which really looks like, oh, putting your dollars and your profit where these articles are. So um I want more from publications and media publications who want to participate in feminist, anti-imperialist, critical capitalist critiques without doing any of a meaningful work with it. But um but this was a fascinating article, though nonetheless. [music break]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere more Pod Save the People is coming. 

 

[AD BREAK]

 

Sharhonda Bossier: My news this week is about a new study on the causes of bacterial vaginosis and people with vaginas. Um. And the study uh is about how to best treat bacterial vaginosis or BV. Um. And I think the reason that this is sort of my story this week, or why I wanted to focus on it, is that one in three women will be diagnosed with BV, which is like a super high, that’s a high number, right? And uh what ends up happening is most often doctors will tell you this is not an STI. This is an imbalance of bacteria in the vagina. And so like you take this, you know, set of antibiotics for seven days and then you will be fine. Uh. What this study has um revealed, though, is that 60% of people who go through that course of treatment experience a recurrence of BV within a year, which is also very high, um and they are learning that it actually might be an STI, and that the important thing is to if those women are having sex with people who are men or who have penises, right, that they should um also treat their partners. Um. And why does this matter? Because everybody’s been told like it’s a super, you know, common thing. You just take these antibiotics and you’ll be fine. But what they also know is that having recurring instances of BV increases your chances of contracting other STIs, including chlamydia, HIV, or pelvic inflammatory disease. That if you are pregnant and have BV, you have an increased risk of having a pre-term birth. Um. And so it’s really important that we figure this out and we figure out how to treat people. And I really wanted to bring it to the pod first for conversation, but also just so that listeners know that if this is something you go to the doctor and your doctor is like, oh, you have BV, here is your seven days of antibiotics that you sort of let them know that there’s new and evolving evidence that it’s an STI, that you want to make sure that your partner gets tested and treated too um so that you are at less risk of contracting these other um STIs. It also just is a reminder that there’s so much that we don’t know about our bodies, particularly the bodies of people who have vaginas, because we just don’t study them in the way that we should. Um. And yeah, it’s we’ve got to advocate for ourselves. And so, yeah, I wanted to bring it to the pod for discussion. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: So I, you know, as a person without a vagina and somebody who is a gold star gay, um this is new to me. So.

 

Myles E. Johnson: I don’t know what a gold star gay is DeRay? Can you please explain?

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I do, because they keep telling–

 

DeRay Mckesson: No they can google it.

 

Sharhonda Bossier: –me I’m not invited to the party. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: They can google it.

 

Myles E. Johnson: For the listen, for the listeners. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: The listeneres the listeners can Google. Um. But the only thing I’ll add is that uh Black women have a twice as high an occurrence of bacterial vaginosis with with more than 50% of women at Black women at childbearing age um at some point experiencing it. So thank you for bringing it to the pod. And this was a complete learning for me. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So and it’s funny that we had this conversation earlier. I can’t remember if it was on or off the podcast, but we were having a conversation around um trans issues. Yeah, that was earlier in our–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And the, and the, and the Trump storm of conversation. But we were talking about trans issues. So to me this is such a great way to enter um cis and trans coalition building. So instead of it being around passports and being around these very class individualistic things, how about we, you know, even I hear you when you’re like kind of inclusive language, but really bringing in trans men in to talk about this too. So usually if something is affecting uh uh Black women Black cis women, it’s going to probably affecting Black trans men too, because they’re often are going to still have those um, have those same like bodily functions. And that is such a meaningful way to connect and to build coalition. And um that’s what this made me think of too. And I have always thought about the same thing when it came to non-binary people and trans women and cis man and prostate cancer and all these different things that we can really join hands on and talk about, that isn’t divisive because we, because, because now we’re actually um uh coming together on what we have in common in our bodies. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Instead of um making a spectacle about what makes our bodies different. And the and the and the matter of fact is in which our article details is that in the medical industry, a Black body is not safe and everybody can get behind that no matter what your Bible told you. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. Last thing I’ll say is, you know, one of my good friends is a clinician and works with a lot of cis hetero couples. And if you are a cis hetero man, you also need to get checked. Please stop trying to get checked by proxy, right? What I hear all the time is like, well, if she’s good, I’m good. If she don’t get it, I don’t got it. No no no no no. Everybody get tested. Do all the things for yourself. Um. Have fun, obviously, but stay safe. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And y’all cheat. I don’t know when we’re going to get into that. But and y’all cheat. So don’t I don’t I there’s so many times I’ve heard that and I’m like, you’re a cheater sir, you’re a, and you’re and you’re an infidel. So so I’m on this year long, life long quest of trying to find Black people in spaces that I’m not used to finding Black people in. And my latest find that I’ve been digging deep for is Abel Selaocoe. I’ve been I’ve been practicing that name. It may not be right, right. But, you know, my heart pronounced his name right. And that’s all that matters. So first things first, I’m on um. I’m on my classical music music app. And I start hearing this, uh these cello string sounds, and I’m like, this is beautiful. Okay. I’m transcended. Um. Then I start hearing this, this, this, this, this gnarly growl, these chants coming along with these strings. And then all of a sudden I go and look at the album cover and I see this Black man, and I’m like, what is going on? So the album that I’m talking about is Hymns of Bantu, and they are the first of all, the album’s spectacular. When you talk about marrying worlds, uh it does that. And there are certain songs on the album, certain movements of the album because that’s what classical people call their music. It’s not songs, it’s movements. There’s certain movements of the album that literally articulate sonically the sounds of colonization. So he sounds like he’s crying as these lush strings are coming in, which perfectly describes um uh, I would think, the French going into Haiti or, uh or or everybody going into West Africa. It just has that, kind of that, that, that tension um inside of it that’s really interesting. He is a South African cellist. He just uh dropped the album on February 21st so it’s new. So I’m trying to think more about people who are living doing this work too. So people who are here to get their flowers and get their recognition can get them. Sometimes I can be a little bit of a nostalgia file. Um. But yeah, I wanted to bring, I wanted to bring his work to you all. He’s from South Africa. The music’s really, really interesting. And again. Oh, the last thing that I’ll say when it comes to his work is and this goes for most of the people who I brought up this year so far is what I didn’t know is listening to Black people do different things also helps you access different imaginations. Because when you listen to music and let’s say if I’m listening to John Coltrane’s Giant Steps, I know that I’m living inside of that imagination that at birth, because I look at my partner, I look at my life, um and I know that I’m living inside of a love supreme. I know I’m living inside of um of of Pharoah Sanders uh everything every album Pharaoh Sanders did. But being in this music, it made my imagination have to make a movie that it never had to make before. It had to almost reimagine a history where we’re victorious because at the end of the day, it is his cello and his voice that are here at the end of this album, which means that this Black person is embodying victory, which makes me have to think about the future differently and think about what is the politics and the ideas and what kind of imagination I have to do to make that right. And it also makes me think of history differently. You know, I think although it’s been done evil, I think white people are on to something when it comes to editing and reframing and reimagining histories in order to serve the, the, the culture and the victory that you that you want to see. And I think this piece of music does that amazingly. I hope you all listen to it. Um. Take a break from Lady Gaga’s mayhem. That is great as well. [laugh] And listen too– 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: You figured it out. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And listen to this album, y’all. It’s so good. It’s so good. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah I, I listened to the interview and and and read the article. I think what I was also struck by is um how hard he fought to to realize this dream, to bring this music and this piece into into the world. Right. Given where he started, what he did not have access to early in life, and how much to your point of like being pushed into a place and space of being able to dream up something new. I cannot imagine, given all that he saw around him, how he was able to see what he has created now, I just, I mean, he he didn’t even have an instrument to play on, right? Uh. When he, when he started. And so I’m always thinking about, particularly in moments when I feel um like I’m lacking imagination, or like I’m lacking convin– conviction, or a sense of possibility to be reminded that I am part of a people who have made literally everything from nothing. Right. And so I think, you know, all that we talked about at the top of the pod and everything that felt heavy and hard this past week, being able to share space. You know, be listening to this interview with someone who was such a dreamer, who has such a sense of possibility, was um was really welcome for me. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Listen to the music, too, because he yells and I’m, you know, I live by myself most of the time because my boyfriend be at school. So I was yelling with him. And I felt good. I felt my ancestors. I felt my help. So so it’s–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Like, you know. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I don’t have much to add. This was a new, new to me. Um. It just remakes it reminds me of like the the uncovering that is happening now in the historical texts that are like all these amazing white musicians and authors and da da da were really people just repackaging stuff that Black enslaved people did or had written or had cooked or had da da da da da. And I, there’s something about this that just reminded me of that, that like when we look at the legacy of the best classical artists and the best da da da, they are all white. And you’re like, mmm, I don’t know. I think this guy– 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: –who had no training might have been the person Bach was learning from. So. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Um. I’m always interested in. [music break] Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come. 

 

[AD BREAK]

 

DeRay Mckesson: This week we welcome New York Times bestselling author Nic Stone on the pod, and we talk about her book, Dear Manny, the third and final installment of her young adult fiction book series that began with Dear Martin. Now, Nic’s books have been banned and challenged in schools and libraries across the country. What she does in this third book is just really brilliant. You got to read it. Nic is a star. Can’t wait for you to hear her voice. Here we go. [music break] Nic Stone. It is great to have you back on the podcast. 

 

Nic Stone: A pleasure. I’m excited to be here. I’m excited to be back. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: So I want to tell you, I told I only told one person I was talking to you today. My one of my best friends from college, Burgess. She teaches middle school English and she was super pumped. She sent me a text after we talked being like, wait, let me just read it, she said, our school is obsessed with Nic Stone, by the way. You are a legend in these streets, so I just wanted to give you your kudos on the front end. And it was great to read this book. I was. I was really pumped about it. So it’s good to hear your voice again. 

 

Nic Stone: Look I’m glad to hear that you were pumped about it. It is a grand experiment, so I’m excited to talk about it. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: You also are just such an honest writer like I, um as the book closes, when you talk about what it was like to write from this perspective. I was like, you know they need more Nic Stones in the world. But let us start with, some people might not be familiar with this series, but let’s start with like how you became a writer. Did you wake up one day and you were like, this book is on my soul? Did you always know you were going to be um be a writer? Like, what was that like? 

 

Nic Stone: Not at all. Um. I started writing at 27. Um. I will be 40 in July. Sporty 40 on em. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Woop woop me too. Me too!

 

Nic Stone: Excited about that. I know! [?]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Wait, what are you, July what? What is your July? 

 

Nic Stone: I’m the I’m the 10th. I think you’re what the ninth? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay, I’m the ninth. Yeah yeah yeah. 

 

Nic Stone: Yeah, yeah. My twin. My twin. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love it. 

 

Nic Stone: You know what I’m saying? Um. So. But it took me a while to even realize writing was something I could do. Because, you know, we grew up at the same time, we didn’t have no books with us in them. I was introduced to fict– to fiction written by Black people when I went to my HBCU, right? So it took a while for me to even recognize writing as something that I could pursue. Um. But once I did, it’s really I started having kids and like, recognizing that my kids were going to have a similar experience to me if I didn’t do something about it. Right. So I decided to start writing, largely because I wanted them to see themselves reflected in books in a way that I didn’t. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love it, and before we talk about this book, one of the things I wanted to ask you, because I’m so curious, I wrote nonfiction, but you get to write like other worlds, and you get to make people and characters and even uh Dear Manny is so interesting. Just the like the style of writing where it goes into like script and da da I’m like this is cool. But what I wanted to ask you is, what is it like to take your books on the road? You know, because people sort of get to live in this world with you in a way that’s very different. My book, you know, is like it was sort of my perspective. It’s my story, it’s nonfiction. So I but I’m always curious, like what is it like with fiction to have kids talk to you all over the country about your books? 

 

Nic Stone: Oh, man. Like, there’s literally nothing like that. So I started my tour technically last Friday, and I’ve just been I’ve encountered at least a thousand kids so far like just in the past week. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love it. 

 

Nic Stone:  Um. Honestly, probably more because it was 550 just yesterday. Um. And they just be so gassed, like they’re so geeked and excited and they want to talk to you. And they’re, they want to tell you how they feel about this character and like, why did you do that on page 133? And it’s just it’s beyond anything I could have possibly imagined because like, we just did not have this, like the people that we were told we had to read when we were kids are all dead and had been–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Right. 

 

Nic Stone: –dead for a really long time. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And if they weren’t dead. 

 

Nic Stone: So. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: You definitely weren’t gonna see them at your school. 

 

Nic Stone: 100% absolutely not. Right. Like Mark Twain been gone. And Harper Lee was not pulling up nowhere. So it was. It’s it’s such a cool experience. And, like, I wouldn’t have it any other way. Like, it’s amazing to write for an audience that I actually have access to. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love it. Well, start us out with the series, and then we’ll talk more specifically about Dear Manny. For people who have not read any of the books. Can you help us understand the world a little better so we can get to Dear Manny?

 

Nic Stone: Yeah, totally. So it starts with Dear Martin. Dear Martin, published in October of 2017. And that one follows a 17 year old African American boy who has this really gross experience with racial profiling and as a result, decides to start a journal of letters to the late Doctor Martin Luther King Junior to see how Doctor King’s teachings hold up in the 21st century. Um. Obviously, Doctor King could not respond to these letters. So I essentially set up a world where you have young people writing letters to process their own thoughts, process their feelings, process their experiences. Um. So Dear Martin came out in 2017. 2020 was Dear Justyce. So the main character from Dear Martin– 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Justyce with a Y.

 

Nic Stone: –is a kid named Justyce. With a Y correct. [laughter] And in Dear Justyce, we have a character that we meet in Dear Martin writing to the main character, writing to the main character of Dear Martin. Um. These are very different books. The first one, Justyce, the main character of Dear Martin, is super high achieving. He’s like Ivy League bound, captain of the debate team, never does anything wrong, um and still finds himself on the receiving end of of racist abuse. Right? And then in the second book, we encounter a kid who’s quite literally the opposite, like they grew up together but just went in totally different directions. Um. LaQuan is locked up awaiting trial on murder charges. And honestly, just doesn’t have a very good sense of who he is as a person. So his journey is all about coming to grips with the power that’s inside of him. Now, this third one, like I didn’t plan to do a second one, and I certainly didn’t plan to do a third one. But I mean, Dear Martin and Dear Justyce get banned a lot. So this is my– 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Wait before we go on. 

 

Nic Stone: –Trojan horse experiment. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: How do do you get like a do you get, like, an email? Like, how do you know?

 

Nic Stone: 100%. People email me. Right. So it’ll be a teacher or a parent in a district who’s upset because we heard your book was getting pulled, or I’ve had a bookseller reach out to me and be like, we’re pissed off. Can you come hang out with us? You know, so it’s always somebody in the community who is upset about the ban, letting me know that it has happened. Um.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Do you remember your first one? 

 

Nic Stone: 100%. It came literally right before the idea for Dear Manny did. So this was 2019. The book Jackpot had just released Into the world. I was on tour, I think I was in Seattle, and I get this email from a teacher in Columbia County, Georgia, which is like a couple hours south of me. I’m in Atlanta, and she was just livid because the superintendent had pulled Dear Martin from all the schools. She pulled that book and she pulled a couple of others. But every time this woman was asked, like, why she had pulled Dear Martin, she gave a different answer. Um. She eventually retired. Like at the end of that school year, she retired. I think, you know, she kind of got run out, um but now she’s on the library board and is trying to get it moved from the YA section to the adult section now. So she hasn’t given up. But it was that first banning incident that kind of led me to where we are now. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay, well. 

 

Nic Stone: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: What was interesting to me about Dear Manny, I, you know, from the very beginning. So I’m not and no spoiler. Uh. It’s a white main character. 

 

Nic Stone: Uh huh. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Which is not true of Dear Justyce and Dear Martin. And I it was it’s funny, even the names I was like, these are the white people I went to college with. I was like, here we go. Um. Tell us why this perspective and why this arch and what you’re hoping to do in Dear Manny. 

 

Nic Stone: You know, as I said, Dear Manny is an experiment. Um. With Dear Martin and Dear Justyce getting banned so frequently. I decided to say, okay, so let’s give this a try. Right? I’m going to send the exact same message, exact same back points, exact same pieces of history. We’re just going to tell it through a different perspective. We’re going to tell it through the perspective of a kid who was like, who looks like the people who are doing the book banning. Right. Um I, the idea for this landed shortly after that first ban because I was just like, you’re giving these answers. Saying like the content is divisive was one was one reason she said that she was taking it out of the schools and I was like, mmm okay. Then another time she said that it was sexually explicit and there’s no sex in any of these books, y’all. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, I’m like, what? 

 

Nic Stone: Like no where. 

 

What was sexually explicit?

 

Nic Stone: There’s nothing sexually explicit in any of these books. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Literally. 

 

Nic Stone: Um. At all. And then–

 

DeRay Mckesson: And and I will give you credit the way that consent is done in Dear Manny. 

 

Nic Stone: Oh, we don’t play. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Beautiful. Super thoughtful. 

 

Nic Stone: We don’t talk about this. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I’m like. 

 

Nic Stone: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: This is modeling. This was very well done. 

 

Nic Stone: 100%. And that’s I hang out with kids. They tell me what they tell me what they be doing. Right. And then the third time she was asked, she said something about the content being inappropriate for high schoolers. So I’m like, so it’s inappropriate for people to talk about things that they are actively experiencing in their daily lives. And it just got under my skin. So as time progressed and more books get banned, it’s like, oh, y’all are banning all the books about Black kids and kids of color and gay kids, right? Like it’s like the the three kind there’s there’s the books about Black kids. Those get tossed out, the books about kids on the LGBTQIA plus spectrum. Those get tossed out. And the kids, the books about kids of color in general tend to get tossed out. And so I’m like, this feels like a racial thing. So let’s just let’s just try let’s just see if if we put a kid who looks like Ron DeSantis on the cover, how he’ll respond to that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: You know, it’s so hard talking to you is that I don’t want to give it away. Um. But I really did appreciate as a kid who grew up in student government. 

 

Nic Stone: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I was like, you know, I really appreciate this sort of understory– 

 

Nic Stone: Me too friend. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: –here. I was like. 

 

Nic Stone: Me too friend. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I’m with this. Um. But, you know, for those of you who have not written a book, you have to write a book long before the world ever sees it. 

 

Nic Stone: 100%. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Now, Nic, what was so interesting about that just reality is that there are some themes in this book that are shockingly timely and–

 

Nic Stone: Shockingly. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Almost uh Nic is a future teller or whatever, because I was like, wow, this is very on the nose. And I know you had to turn this book in a long time ago. Um. Are there any of those themes you want to talk about? I’m trying to. I’ll let you manage spoiler land and not me, but um I don’t want to. You know, you talk about DEI. You do or DEI is present in the book. Affirmative action is present in the book. Legacy  admissions is present in the book alongside all these sort of what it’s like to be a kid and just growing up and people’s parents and money and no money. And the the sort of framework of assault, domestic assault, which of those I don’t I’m trying really hard not to spoil anything. So I will just say, can you talk about any of them? 

 

Nic Stone: Yeah. I can. Yeah. So what’s interesting about this book is you’re so right. I turned this book in, like the first draft of this book. I turned in like a year and a half ago, so. And it’s not like the themes in the book weren’t things we are talking about. It’s just now people have gotten loud about it, right? Like it’s like back–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Right. 

 

Nic Stone: When Dear Martin was first banned in in 20 2019. This is a year, this is prior to 2020 and George Floyd and the explosion of books about race and racism. Right. So it’s like I’m just telling the truth that I see around me. And it just so happens that other people are noticing that same truth around the time that the book comes out. I’m thrilled that that keeps happening. Like, I’m not mad at it at all, um but it absolutely touches on book banning. It touches on DEI, it touches on um assault culture. It touches on government. There’s a lot of constitutional content in this book. Part of the reason for that is because, like, we don’t teach kids civics. So like there are so many kids who are going to school and have no idea what it actually means to even be American. Like, what does it mean to be an American citizen? What are you supposed to be guaranteed as a person who is an American citizen? Kids have no idea about this stuff. So I wanted to kind of infuse it since it is a book about student government, um the main character running for junior class council president at college. Um. I was senior class president. I know you were. I think you were. You were too, right? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I was school president. 

 

Nic Stone: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And class president. 

 

Nic Stone: There you go. Right. So, like, student government is a thing. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: It’s a thing. 

 

Nic Stone: So it got it was fun, kind of minding my own experiences from student government and also using the lens of student government to talk about our wider government. Right. Especially right now. So, like the stuff that is most interesting to me that I wound up including in the book and that I’m interested to see how people respond to, is the stuff around the Constitution. So in Dear Martin, there was a class called uh I think, contemporary issues or something, I can’t remember. I wrote that book a long time ago, um but there was a class featured in that book where a lot of the discussions happened, and so I put a [?] Hhonestly, beat by beat. This book is pretty close to Dear Martin um on purpose. So the class in this book is constitutional law. And so they’re discussing book banning through the lens of the Constitution. They’re discussing like, okay, does it fall more under First Amendment violation or 14th amendment violation? Is it about freedom of speech or is it about equal protection under the law, like helping get like, I wanted to like, give some fodder for classroom discussions around what it actually means to be an American. Because right now I feel like that is being challenged in so many directions. And y’all not gonna tell me I’m not American. I probably know more about being–

 

DeRay Mckesson: She said you not gonna tell me. 

 

Nic Stone: –American than you do because I actually read the Constitution. Have you read it, sir? You know what I’m saying? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Y’all this is the one and only Nic Stone. Um. There are two questions I wanted to ask. Um. That we didn’t talk about the last time we talked on the podcast. Um. The first is, you know, your kids have grown up with you as a writer. How has motherhood, parenthood informed the way you’ve grown as a writer? 

 

Nic Stone: That’s a really good question. I mean, honestly, I started writing because of my kids. I keep writing because, like, I got bills to pay because of my kids. But what I will say is just watching them grow as readers has helped to inform the things that I want to write about. And that has been that’s been really exciting. Like my my younger son has started writing as well. He has given himself–

 

No way! 

 

Nic Stone: –a pen name. Yeah, he’s got a pen name based on his middle name, just like I do. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh. 

 

Nic Stone: And it is. He just. He’s been on tour with me this first week of tour. He was with me the whole week. And so–

 

DeRay Mckesson: How is he? How’s he like tour? 

 

Nic Stone: Oh, he hated it. Like by by the time we got to last night, he was done, like, ready to be done. Cause we talking, like, 12 hour days. I’m in three schools. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Right. 

 

Nic Stone: And then I got an evening event, you know? So he’s running with me, and yeah, this morning when we got home, we landed at like 7:30 this morning. And he was like, mommy, I’m not going with you today. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love it, he said I’ve done it.

 

Nic Stone: So I [?]. He said, I’m done. I need you, I need you to call grand dad.So he’s at his grand dad’s house. Chillin with grand dad today. Because he is. He was he was not with it anymore. Um. But the things that they’re interested in inform the things that I decide to write about. And also the things that they’re like facing and dealing with. Right. So it’s wild to see. My older son is 12 right now and he’s in middle school. He’s in seventh grade and just watching his seventh grade experience because I vividly remember mine. Part of it, part of being a children’s book author is that like you have to actually think about and remember your own childhood, even the parts that were uncomfortable. Um. So watching him go through the seventh grade blues essentially has been really fascinating. And they’re very big on letting me know what they like and don’t like. Um. And I find that, like the older they get, the more comfortable I am being a little, like grittier with, with regard to the stuff I put in in children’s books, because they deal with some really hard stuff. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And it is the biggest thing in their world. 

 

Nic Stone: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: At the time. 

 

Nic Stone: Absolutely. Because it was the biggest thing in mine. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Right. And I taught middle school, I taught sixth grade and I uh seventh grade was awful because it was puberty, but sixth grade was still magical. And they were– 

 

Nic Stone: They’re still so sweet. Yeah.

 

DeRay Mckesson: They’re so sweet. They were great. I also wanted to ask you now, three books, three books in this series and a world that we know well. What are you proud of? Like you’ve had such a cool career as an author. Um. I’d love to know, like what you’re proud of. 

 

Nic Stone: I will say writing this book in particular was incredibly empowering for me as a queer Black woman. Like to write this book about this straight white boy that I know people are going to buy because they bought the other two books in the series and that I know people are going to read. It felt empowering to me to be like, no, I can tell this story too. Like, this is I’ve been drowning in this story for years now, so I can tell it with no qualms, no issues. Watch me work type like that’s the energy. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Ah come on [?]. 

 

Nic Stone: That has been coming with it. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love it. 

 

Nic Stone: And um and I’m actually really excited about people being upset because I know I, I obviously I don’t have a problem making people mad. Right? With Dear Martin and Dear Justyce, I know it was some people who were mad, but it’s from that place of discomfort that real change starts to happen. And so I really do want to challenge people to actually take the time to engage with the opposite side, the opposite perspective, even if just so that you understand it in contrast to your own. I really do want people to take the time and try to, like, empathize across the line and recognize like, yes, these people who you totally disagree with are still people. Like, I really do want us to get back into a space where we’re able to engage in just like healthy debate and dialog, and nobody’s mind needs to be changed. You know, like the way democracy functions. Majority rules. That’s it. Right. So but that doesn’t mean that everybody has to believe the same thing or hold the same opinion. Right? So like I think there’s so much space right now for healthy dialog. If we hold that space and it’s hard to do, but it’s worthwhile. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And before I ask you about the world that we’re in right now. I you know, I really loved Dylan. 

 

Nic Stone: Uh. My girl. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And she was just really sweet. And, you know, again, read the book, y’all. Um. But but how is how did you always know Dylan would show up one day? Was was it hard to make Dylan? Was Dylan always in the back of your mind? 

 

Nic Stone: Dylan is me, honey. Like. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay. 

 

Nic Stone: As me as one can possibly get. But it’s the stuff that I can’t say online without getting canceled. So like she says the things that I cannot say. Um. When we the the first time we see Dylan like, pop off. Oh my gosh, it felt so good to write that paragraph. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love it. 

 

Nic Stone: Like there’s a there’s a meeting about the the presidency, about the campaigning and stuff, and a character makes a comment and she just stands up and just she goes in, not even directed at him. And it just felt so good to be able to say the things that I want to say, but through the lens of a fictional character. So, you know, because people be mad when I talk. So let me just give it to you through her. But know that I’m the one saying it. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: [laugh] And she was so unbothered, I loved it. 

 

Nic Stone: So unbothered. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I’m like um what what are some of the characters, I think, that resonate with the kids when you’re on tour? Is that or like, how do how do they experience the characters in the way that you intended, or do they experience them very differently or a mixture of both? I’m so interested. 

 

Nic Stone: Now, the interesting thing about The Dear Martin trilogy is that most people don’t really latch onto a single character, right? And that’s been really surprising for me. Um. They they just love the world. And they, they are interested in all of the people in there. So they they get attached to different characters at different points in the series. So as they continue to read and it’s worked in my favor because each book is following a different main character. So because people aren’t just distinctly attached to Justyce, they’re willing to read Dear Justyce, which is about LaQuan. And they’ll be willing to read Dear Manny, which is about Jared, because they just they like the world. So I do think, though, that that is going to shift a little bit once people start to meet Dylan, because Dylan is, Dylan is everything. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That girl. 

 

Nic Stone: She is my favorite character I’ve ever written. And I just love her. And I’m trying to resist the urge to like, give her her own book. Because I need, I need to do other things. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: She really is that girl. What is it like to be um a writer in this moment, or to have a book come out in this, in this political moment that, you know, it’s been dicey. You know your first book came out in a in a moment that I mean, that’s why I met you. Where the we were at protest and da da da. 

 

Nic Stone: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: But this feels even more something this moment. 

 

Nic Stone: I mean, it really doesn’t to me, I think and–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay. 

 

Nic Stone: I think probably. Well, and it’s likely because like, I’m already banned everywhere, like, what else y’all gonna do. You know what I’m saying like, there’s almost a like I have I’m I’m just going to keep doing the work. Y’all haven’t liked the work from jump. So I’m just like, this is nothing new for me. Um. What I will say is that I can’t wait to see if there are people who are unfamiliar with Dear Martin and Dear Justyce, but who pick up Dear Manny because of the cover and who decide to read it, and who are not familiar with me. And they see Nic Stone, and they assume it’s a white guy, like, because there’s a white boy on the cover and how the reception. I’m interested to see how this is going to be received, especially in light of how the other two were. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: You know, what I love about your work, too, is that it gives people language. Like I think about the the way you sort of deal with helicopter parents or like the and sometimes people know the experience but don’t know the language for it. And then I read this I’m like oh this is going to some kids are going to know what to say after reading this book. Um. I wanted to know too, what advice do you have there? Are, you have inspired so many young people to think about writing and so many adults to also consider writing. Do you have any advice for young writers or emerging writers who who want to follow in your footsteps? 

 

Nic Stone: 100% I listen, the main thing that I will say is that writing is about relationships between human beings. All storytelling is human, right? Even the books about trucks, cars, animals, all of those things, they’re anthropomorphized, right? They have human characteristics because we are trying to teach young children with those books. We’re trying to teach children about what it means to be a person, even if that’s happening subconsciously. So if you want to be a writer, you have to learn how to be a human. And what that means is making sure that you are validating all of your very human experiences, right? Like not gaslighting yourself, making sure you feel your feelings, taking the time to understand the things that you find hurtful or harmful. Knowing who you are like, all of those things are super imperative. And then you also have to be willing, like there has to be a willingness to engage with things that you, number one, don’t know. And number two, don’t agree with. Right. Like there’s a there’s an openness necessary to create good stories because like anybody can tell the same story over and over again. But to me, it’s important to try to tell things in a new way. If I’m going to achieve my mission of getting people to think critically. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Boom. And on that note let’s close with um so buy the book y’all, because it’s great buy all the books. Uh. But I wanted to know if you have anything to say to kids who right now are feeling heavy about the world. I think about in so many schools because of ICE or because of what’s happening. People’s hope is really challenged. 

 

Nic Stone: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And I wanted to know what you say to those people whose hope is challenged?

 

Nic Stone: What I say to people whose hope is challenged is to breathe deliberately. There’s something to me about recognizing that my body is keeping me alive and participating in that. That makes me remember that nothing lasts forever. You know, like I have um a friend named Michelle. I saw her on Monday this week, and she was telling me about how she was complaining to a friend about the state of the world, and the friend basically said to her, that’s cool, but just don’t forget the sheer magnitude of insignificance. Like, the world is massive and this time is what it is. And there have been times before it that were worse, like I have a, I like to say, like my ancestors were enslaved. So this is light work, you know. Just being aware that there were times before this one. There will be times after this one, and finding that one thing that you can hold on to. And for me, it’s my breath. Like I just literally will force myself to feel my breath going in and out of my body. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Boom, everybody. The one and only Nic Stone. Get the book. Dear Manny, wherever you buy your books and hopefully we’ll get to see you on tour. [music break] Well that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at @CrookedMedia on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media it’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson.